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	<title>Comments on: Kyle&#8217;s Coupons: &#8220;Fairness&#8221; Hurts the Frugal</title>
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	<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/</link>
	<description>Saving money and getting out of debt from a Christian SAHM perspective</description>
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		<title>By: trek</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-16373</link>
		<dc:creator>trek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-16373</guid>
		<description>Nobody walked into our living room and said, here&#039;s a check, pay your mortgage.  We earn the money to pay our bills and we do not spend wastefully.

I&#039;m glad you didn&#039;t make your son give his sister part of his candy.  If he decides to share some, great.  If not, he &quot;earned&quot; it.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;trek’s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://trekcelt.blogspot.com/2009/04/in-which-neatnik-hides.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;In which Neatnik hides&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody walked into our living room and said, here&#8217;s a check, pay your mortgage.  We earn the money to pay our bills and we do not spend wastefully.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you didn&#8217;t make your son give his sister part of his candy.  If he decides to share some, great.  If not, he &#8220;earned&#8221; it.</p>
<p><abbr><em>trek’s last blog post..<a href="http://trekcelt.blogspot.com/2009/04/in-which-neatnik-hides.html" rel="nofollow">In which Neatnik hides</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Su L</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-16027</link>
		<dc:creator>Su L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-16027</guid>
		<description>Reading all these responses, one thing in particular jumps out at me: Judgment.  Criticizing, condemning, judgmental, etc. etc.  How can any one of us judge whether or not another person &quot;deserves&quot; what they have?  There is no way to compare apples to apples when it comes to peoples lives.  If this is where &quot;helping&quot; each others leads us, then I say, it&#039;s not helpful. What good is it if everything is &quot;fair&quot; and &quot;even&quot; but class envy and hatred is at an all time high?  Charity is only virtuous so long as it is voluntary.  When it is voluntary, there is no reason to question, judge or weigh the fairness of the matter.  What was given, was given freely and no restitution or accounting for it is required by any third party.  Furthermore, financial help is inadequate when it is divorced from relationship and community. Government and bureaucracy will never solve the problems of poverty.  They are incapable of addressing the true needs.  We must recognize their limitations and take upon ourselves our true responsibilities of compassion and charity- without the conscription of the government.  It is not compassionate to pass our responsibilities off on a governmental system that has proven itself incompetent.  

As far as &quot;fair&quot; goes- in our home, that word is banned.  If any of the kids say it you hear a whole lot of &quot;ooooh, you said fair...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading all these responses, one thing in particular jumps out at me: Judgment.  Criticizing, condemning, judgmental, etc. etc.  How can any one of us judge whether or not another person &#8220;deserves&#8221; what they have?  There is no way to compare apples to apples when it comes to peoples lives.  If this is where &#8220;helping&#8221; each others leads us, then I say, it&#8217;s not helpful. What good is it if everything is &#8220;fair&#8221; and &#8220;even&#8221; but class envy and hatred is at an all time high?  Charity is only virtuous so long as it is voluntary.  When it is voluntary, there is no reason to question, judge or weigh the fairness of the matter.  What was given, was given freely and no restitution or accounting for it is required by any third party.  Furthermore, financial help is inadequate when it is divorced from relationship and community. Government and bureaucracy will never solve the problems of poverty.  They are incapable of addressing the true needs.  We must recognize their limitations and take upon ourselves our true responsibilities of compassion and charity- without the conscription of the government.  It is not compassionate to pass our responsibilities off on a governmental system that has proven itself incompetent.  </p>
<p>As far as &#8220;fair&#8221; goes- in our home, that word is banned.  If any of the kids say it you hear a whole lot of &#8220;ooooh, you said fair&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: unothink4me</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-15497</link>
		<dc:creator>unothink4me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 07:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-15497</guid>
		<description>I know no one has posted here for a bit, but I must comment to Lynnae. You state that &quot;I think the private sector is much more able to monitor people’s true needs, rather than leaving it to the government.&quot; Really? I guess I just don&#039;t understand why. Because  large corporations have done so well monitoring themselves? I don&#039;t mean to be disrespectful, but have you paid attention to what&#039;s been going on lately? Do you really think large corporations in the private sector are going to do what is best for the people? Can you give me a single example?

Big insurance companies = big corporations. You&#039;ve admitted yourself that the healthcare system needs reform. Do you honestly thing these people would adequately take care of the underprivileged? While it&#039;s easy to cast aspersions, I think you&#039;d be better suited to stop stereotyping and become a little better informed about what&#039;s actually going on. Kyle&#039;s examples are simplistic and stereotypical, and not at all what most people have experienced. It&#039;s time to find solutions instead of just complaining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know no one has posted here for a bit, but I must comment to Lynnae. You state that &#8220;I think the private sector is much more able to monitor people’s true needs, rather than leaving it to the government.&#8221; Really? I guess I just don&#8217;t understand why. Because  large corporations have done so well monitoring themselves? I don&#8217;t mean to be disrespectful, but have you paid attention to what&#8217;s been going on lately? Do you really think large corporations in the private sector are going to do what is best for the people? Can you give me a single example?</p>
<p>Big insurance companies = big corporations. You&#8217;ve admitted yourself that the healthcare system needs reform. Do you honestly thing these people would adequately take care of the underprivileged? While it&#8217;s easy to cast aspersions, I think you&#8217;d be better suited to stop stereotyping and become a little better informed about what&#8217;s actually going on. Kyle&#8217;s examples are simplistic and stereotypical, and not at all what most people have experienced. It&#8217;s time to find solutions instead of just complaining.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob in Madrid</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-15053</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in Madrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-15053</guid>
		<description>this quote from time is more what I had in mind

It&#039;s a brutal game, though, in which a single strike makes you a loser. And that brutality explains another strain of anger beginning to bubble up from the newly bankrupted. People like Paula Stevens and Joseph Zachery weren&#039;t flipping houses or lying on their loan applications. They didn&#039;t pile up mountains of credit-card debt. They worked hard for what they had and shared their modest portions with others. Each readily admits to making occasional mistakes with money, but even Warren Buffett has made occasional mistakes with money. Their bitterness stems from a feeling that they&#039;ve held up their end of the social contract, but now the terms of the deal have been rewritten by malign forces. &quot;It&#039;s a different world and a different time,&quot; Stevens said ruefully. &quot;Even if you work hard you get laid off.&quot; Zachery put it this way: &quot;It&#039;s not the United States anymore. Those at the top have sold out the bottom for money.&quot; 

It shall be very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this quote from time is more what I had in mind</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a brutal game, though, in which a single strike makes you a loser. And that brutality explains another strain of anger beginning to bubble up from the newly bankrupted. People like Paula Stevens and Joseph Zachery weren&#8217;t flipping houses or lying on their loan applications. They didn&#8217;t pile up mountains of credit-card debt. They worked hard for what they had and shared their modest portions with others. Each readily admits to making occasional mistakes with money, but even Warren Buffett has made occasional mistakes with money. Their bitterness stems from a feeling that they&#8217;ve held up their end of the social contract, but now the terms of the deal have been rewritten by malign forces. &#8220;It&#8217;s a different world and a different time,&#8221; Stevens said ruefully. &#8220;Even if you work hard you get laid off.&#8221; Zachery put it this way: &#8220;It&#8217;s not the United States anymore. Those at the top have sold out the bottom for money.&#8221; </p>
<p>It shall be very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob in Madrid</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-15051</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in Madrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-15051</guid>
		<description>while I love reading stuff like this I think I may stop commenting (at least on political points) as my comments tend to come across as liberal, something I&#039;m not. (hell I even subcribe to the WSJ)

regardless keep up the good work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>while I love reading stuff like this I think I may stop commenting (at least on political points) as my comments tend to come across as liberal, something I&#8217;m not. (hell I even subcribe to the WSJ)</p>
<p>regardless keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-14986</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-14986</guid>
		<description>You say, &quot;Paying taxes is not anything like stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are the price we pay for a civil society.&quot;

Could not agree more. I have no problem paying my fair share in taxes to live in this country. That is not what my original post was about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say, &#8220;Paying taxes is not anything like stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are the price we pay for a civil society.&#8221;</p>
<p>Could not agree more. I have no problem paying my fair share in taxes to live in this country. That is not what my original post was about.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob in Madrid</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-14985</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in Madrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-14985</guid>
		<description>Kyle let me rephrase then. Paying taxes is not anything like stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are the price we pay for a civil society. 

As an aside Kris you are partially correct congress under Bill Clinton National Homeownership Stragegy” help feed into the subprime crisis, but it represents only a small portion of the whole problem (I have a visual link, if I can find it I will post it. 

Personally the best way to get poor people into decent housing is education, education which leads to better employment and regulations (and education) which prevent large corporations from taking advantage of the poor and ignorant-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyle let me rephrase then. Paying taxes is not anything like stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Taxes are the price we pay for a civil society. </p>
<p>As an aside Kris you are partially correct congress under Bill Clinton National Homeownership Stragegy” help feed into the subprime crisis, but it represents only a small portion of the whole problem (I have a visual link, if I can find it I will post it. </p>
<p>Personally the best way to get poor people into decent housing is education, education which leads to better employment and regulations (and education) which prevent large corporations from taking advantage of the poor and ignorant-</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-14983</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-14983</guid>
		<description>Rob, I did stop there. Maybe you need to go back and re-read my original post. Please do not put words in my mouth. Maybe you are suffering from post vacation syndrome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob, I did stop there. Maybe you need to go back and re-read my original post. Please do not put words in my mouth. Maybe you are suffering from post vacation syndrome.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob in Madrid</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-14555</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in Madrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-14555</guid>
		<description>The problem with articles like this is that they provide cover for the right wing agenda of cutting social services in the name of the social good. Of course life ins&#039;t fair and if one child works hard and gets a larger reward so be it, that&#039;s good parenting. 


Had Kyle stopped there, people would have supported his decision. Instead he applied the typical right wing agenda to prove why a social safety net is evil (note this doesn&#039;t mean that there aren&#039;t better methods of improving the life of the poor or that the current means are good) and the only reason the poor are poor is that they&#039;re lazy bums who need to get a job.

Case in point, with the crisis devastating state budgets the first thing to be cut are programs which the poor rely on. The only budget being increased, Corporate Welfare. Don&#039;t know about you but I don&#039;t we should be paying companies to move jobs from one State to another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with articles like this is that they provide cover for the right wing agenda of cutting social services in the name of the social good. Of course life ins&#8217;t fair and if one child works hard and gets a larger reward so be it, that&#8217;s good parenting. </p>
<p>Had Kyle stopped there, people would have supported his decision. Instead he applied the typical right wing agenda to prove why a social safety net is evil (note this doesn&#8217;t mean that there aren&#8217;t better methods of improving the life of the poor or that the current means are good) and the only reason the poor are poor is that they&#8217;re lazy bums who need to get a job.</p>
<p>Case in point, with the crisis devastating state budgets the first thing to be cut are programs which the poor rely on. The only budget being increased, Corporate Welfare. Don&#8217;t know about you but I don&#8217;t we should be paying companies to move jobs from one State to another.</p>
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		<title>By: Lunette</title>
		<link>http://beingfrugal.net/2008/11/12/fairness-hurts-the-frugal/comment-page-2/#comment-14503</link>
		<dc:creator>Lunette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beingfrugal.net/?p=1159#comment-14503</guid>
		<description>Wow! I&#039;m amazed at the passionate debate that was aroused by Kyle&#039;s post over a few days in Nov.  I thought the main point of his post was that those who are live irresponsibly should not be &quot;bailed out&quot; by those who have lived responsibly.  The frugal lifestyle often requires being content to live without one&#039;s desires.  For the person who hasn&#039;t learned to say no to what they want, financial ruin can help them learn that, if they are given the opportunity to creatively deal with the problem they have made by irresponsible excess.  Working, budgeting and living simply on the money you earn can seem like a sacrifice for someone not use to it, but it is the best way to fix the &quot;live on credit&quot; financial disasters people create for them selves.  I think this is the main idea to Kyle&#039;s post.  How does all the other difficult life circumstances (person c, d, e, etc.) enter the discussion?

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Lunette’s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://weecookery.blogspot.com/2009/02/vanilla-cherry-pudding-i-grew-up-in-50s.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! I&#8217;m amazed at the passionate debate that was aroused by Kyle&#8217;s post over a few days in Nov.  I thought the main point of his post was that those who are live irresponsibly should not be &#8220;bailed out&#8221; by those who have lived responsibly.  The frugal lifestyle often requires being content to live without one&#8217;s desires.  For the person who hasn&#8217;t learned to say no to what they want, financial ruin can help them learn that, if they are given the opportunity to creatively deal with the problem they have made by irresponsible excess.  Working, budgeting and living simply on the money you earn can seem like a sacrifice for someone not use to it, but it is the best way to fix the &#8220;live on credit&#8221; financial disasters people create for them selves.  I think this is the main idea to Kyle&#8217;s post.  How does all the other difficult life circumstances (person c, d, e, etc.) enter the discussion?</p>
<p><abbr><em>Lunette’s last blog post..<a href="http://weecookery.blogspot.com/2009/02/vanilla-cherry-pudding-i-grew-up-in-50s.html" rel="nofollow"></a></em></abbr></p>
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